Tuesday, February 23, 2010
Romeo and Juliet Act II: question 2
2. Describe the way the nurse was treated by Romeo and his friends when they met in the street. How do you personally feel about this treatment? What was Shakespeare's intent for including such a scene (ex. to be funny, to make us like or dislike the Montagues, to point out a flaw in the class systems, etc)? Due Friday 2/26/10 by midnight.
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When Romeo and his friends see the nurse, they make fun of her because she is more elderly, is a lower class than they are, and serves in the Montagues' (their enemy) household. Mercutio was getting a little carried away with his jokes. But, that seems to be his personality. He starts out funny and everyone laughs, but as he carries on, he goes a little over board. Like with the nurse, he jokes with her with little sex jokes. In the end though, he sings mean comments to her and taunts her. Personally, I think it was all for fun but it would get annoying after a while if I was the only one getting picked on. I think Shakespeare's intent in this scene is to show everyone that Romeo is not as mature as he seems to be; especially with his friends. I think Shakespeare is trying to tell us that Romeo might not be responsible and ready enough to take on a lifelong commitment like marriage. He might also be pointing out that there is a difference between higher class and servants, maids, and nurses. Of course the higher class will make fun of the lower, less fortunate class. We still do it today. We laugh at those who are less educated or at a lower "rank" than us. It may be funny if the other person is laughing, but it could also be hurtful. Honestly, I think the boys were just being boys and were trying to have some fun with the nurse.
Re: Lauren's Comment
Doesn't the nurse serve for the Capulets? Romeo is a Montague, so the Montague's household isn't going to be his enemy.
First off, I don’t think the reason the rowdy men made fun of the Nurse is because she is a Capulet. Remember; Romeo’s friends don’t know yet that his love is also his family’s enemy. It seemed that the Nurse was going along with it for a time, she was getting offended when they didn’t let up. Though I personally don’t believe that this treatment is right, back in the day you could just about get away with murder if you were high-class.
Shakespeare made this scene so for a few reasons. Yes, it was made to entertain the audiences because the Nurse was so ignorant and the boys were so rude, but it was also made to show just that: they are boys. Imagine a TV show, like the Simpsons, where the main character takes advantage of people who are of lower class or intellect than themselves. Apparently, this exact scenario has been comedic gold for a long time, but has also obviously been a problem, even back in Shakespeare’s time. I have to agree with Lauren when she said that Romeo’s immaturity is shown when he doesn’t step up and defend his love’s friend, but conforms to his friends’ standards.
As the nurse made her way through the town square toward Romeo, the Montague brigade began to taunt her. They made inappropriate remarks insinuating she was as big as a boat, and she was too ugly to keep her face revealed. Though Mercutio certainly lead the attack, which was not surprising considering he has a very crude sense of humor, Romeo even join in the banter. This surprised me seeing that the nurse is a strong maternal figure in Juliet’s (the woman he is overwhelmingly in love with) life. I feel Shakespeare included this scene to portray several aspects of Romeo and Juliet’s time. One was the strong division of the class system. The wealthy class had a lot of control over the people that were below them socially. This by no means justifies Romeo’s actions, which brings me to me next observation. I feel Shakespeare maybe wanted to portray Romeo’s naïve ways of thinking. Though he speaks to Juliet so beautifully, and maturely speaks of the love they share, in all actuality Romeo is still a boy. This can be inferred observing the way he joined the boys in mocking someone who is so dear to the one he loves most. Finally I certainly think this displayed the sharp division between the families. Even Romeo got carried away in the excitement and criticized the nurse. It displays how natural it is for the families to be enemies.
When Romeo and his friends first catch a glimpse of the nurse they instantly begin to mock her. They are extremely rude and obnoxious towards her, and they don’t care about her feelings. They begin making snide comments towards her because of her physical appearance. She is elderly, and rather plain in appearance. Mercutio makes jokes that are inappropriate to say to any one of your elders. Mercutio, generally the jokester of the group, made the majority of the comments, but even Romeo joined in. Does Romeo know how close the nurse is to Juliet, the so-called love of his life? Romeo ought to be showing the nurse utmost respect! Instead he goes and makes fun of the poor lady, directly to her face! I think that Shakespeare did this to show how naïve Romeo is, and perhaps how he doesn’t know how to handle himself yet. He also might have done this to humor us, as well as to show the outstanding differences between the classes. The boys feel that they can make fun of the nurse, because she is in a lower class then they are. I think that the treatment that Romeo and his friends gave to the nurse was extremely rude, disrespectful, and appalling! I agree with Lauren 100%, Romeo should have stood up for the nurse when his friends started making fun of her. He knows the closeness of the relationship between the nurse and young Juliet, and he should have enough backbone to stand up for what he knows is right, even if it means going against what your friends are saying.
When the nurse goes to inform Romeo about the marriage plans, she is mistreated greatly. All of the men make witty, unnecessary comments that could really impact someone emotionally. The men are showing signs of immaturity and I think they need to grow up. Also, I thought it was wrong for Romeo to join in with his friends. Like I mentioned in my Act I post, the nurse is like a mother figure to Juliet. Romeo is about to marry Juliet and showing this treatment towards the nurse is very disrespectful. I understand that many years ago, there were different classes according to how much money you had, but that does not give those men a right to treat the nurse in such manner. The nurse was doing as she was asked, and although she is not the most beautiful human being with the most money, she still deserves kindness.
I think Shakespeare put this scene in for several different reasons. My first idea was for comedy. Comedy was a very important role in old English plays, and most of it was done by ridiculing people of the lower class. Another idea that I had was to show the different distinctions of the classes. Like I mentioned before, the higher class feels the need to make fun of the lower class, and that is exactly what happened. The nurse is a very humorous woman who does great things for Juliet. Overall, I think the treatment towards the nurse was rude and uncalled for.
When the Montague’s and the nurse meet in Romeo and Juliet, the boys taunt her and make her the center of their cruel jokes. These jokes aim to make a spectacle of her and to belittle her, for example when they compare her to a boat on page 97. I feel that at this point in the play the boys were just being humorously rowdy and young as they can be expected to be. Yet, as the taunting continued I believe that they were acting incredibly immature and indecent. Shakespeare’s intent of this scene I believe was to, at first, be amusing to the viewers as they watched, but as the scene went on I think that it’s purpose was to put forth that Romeo was not necessarily the charming, sweet, young man that he initially appeared to be. This can be interpreted from his willingness to go along with his friends taunting of the nurse even though he knew of her connection with Juliet. Personally, I feel that Shakespeare intended to cast light on the upcoming events by showing that because he was not quite grown in maturity than things may not go as smoothly as the viewers are hoping. This scene shows that possibly future actions won't be done wisely either.
As all the young men are talking to each other and bonding together, the nurse approaches with her servant Peter. They then become the fresh targets for the boys’ jokes. Romeo started the impolite humor on page 64 by saying, “A sail, a sail!” He is taunting the nurse, saying she is looks like a ship. Mercutio joins in and says on page 64, “Two, two! A shirt and a smock.” This phrase means a man and a woman, but because they belong to a lower class he refers to them as items. Mercutio also says this because Peter’s shirt and the nurse’s head gear look like the sails of a ship. After the nurse calls to Peter to get her fan, Mercutio made another rude remark. He says on page 65, “Good Peter, to hide her face; for her fan’s the fairer face.” He is saying that she is unattractive, and the fan in front of her face makes it better. They constantly make rude jokes about her.
On page 66, the nurse gets to the point where she’s so angry that she just starts fighting him verbally back. She states that she could take him down and that she isn’t one of the girls he flirts with. After Mercutio and Benvolio leave, the nurse and Romeo start to get along. She tells Romeo that his intensions to marry Juliet better be true. Even though the nurse does tell Romeo that she believes Paris is a better match for Juliet (page 68), she has a nice conversation with Romeo about her meeting him the next day for their marriage.
I believe the nurse was treated very rudely by Romeo and his friends when they met in the street. They made rude sexual remarks and treated her in a nasty way. I personally feel that Romeo is not the way a gentleman should have behaved towards an elder woman, even if she wasn’t in the highest class. He goes along with his friends and keeps making fun of the poor woman. She didn’t say or make any rude gesture to them, so they have no reason to start this.
I think Shakespeare’s intent for creating such a scene was to point out a major difference in the class systems. He may have been pointing out that poor, uneducated women were also not respected equally to the higher class women. Shakespeare might have also created this tone to make comedy in the play. There were many rich people who went to see plays back in his time, and they would have really liked this form of comedy. To sum it all up, I think the jokes made by Romeo were immature and he should have been nice to the nurse, since she is so close to Juliet.
I believe the boys' treatment of the nurse was to be funny, but the way it was portrayed in the movie made it look like it was to point out a flaw in the caste system. In the play, it does not really seem like the nurse is getting too worked up about it, but in the movie it really seemed like they were really tormenting her because she is just a lowly nurse. But all in all, this just shows what Romeo is really like. He still runs around with the rest of the rowdy boys. He just stood there laughing with everyone while Mercutio was the star of the show. The nurse was really upset after her encounter with them, and Romeo had done nothing to stop the bullying! After that scene, I am surprised the nurse wanted to talk to him at all.
Re: Kelley Foyle
Kelley, I really like how you pointed out to us that Romeo probably didn't think of how close the nurse is to his beloved Juliet. I think that if Romeo would have realized how important the Nurse was in Juliet's life, he might have treated her differently. I'm sure that Juliet would have been disappointed in Romeo for treating her confidant and best friend in such a manner.
The nurse was treated with disrespect by Romeo and his friends. They felt they could make fun of her because she was a peasant and obviously a lower social class. They made sexual jokes toward her and poked fun at the way she talked. I personally think that the way they treated the nurse was shameful. They had no right to make fun of her, even though they were higher up in society. I was also surprised that Romeo made fun of the nurse because he knew that she is Juliet’s nurse. I think that Romeo went along with his friends’ banter because he wanted to “be part of the group.” I noticed that when Romeo talked to the nurse alone, he was a completely different person, being more respectful and kind. To me, Romeo’s personality is a little shifty. If he is not strong enough mentally to be his own person when he is around his friends, how do we know that what Romeo says he feels for Juliet is really true? If he can be so easily swayed, can’t we safely assume he is way too immature to get married, especially to someone he barely knows?
I think Shakespeare's intent for this scene was to show that Romeo really was immature and he is not a very strong person mentally. I think it is sort of setting up the end of the story, too. Someone like Romeo should not be married; he is only setting hiself up for a poorly-ended relationship(or in this case a deadly one) I also think that it was to point out the flaw in the social class system.
The morning before Romeo and Juliet get married, the nurse is harassed by Romeo and his friends. The nurse has set out with another servant named Peter in search of Romeo, and when Romeo’s friends see the nurse they begin to make fun of her. Technically Mercutio is the leader of this “attack”, but Romeo goes along with it. Romeo even yells, “Here’s goodly gear. A sail, a sail!” Mercutio joins in with the attack when he says, “Good Peter, to hide her face, for her fan’s the fairer face.” Both of these comments are calling the nurse unattractive. To make things worse, Mercutio starts to interject inappropriate comments and even sings a rude song. At first, the nurse seems like she is trying to ignore them. However, when the boys keep going, she becomes very angry. When Romeo realizes that they have taken things to far, he follows the nurse away from his friends. Personally I think that this treatment is very wrong. Although the nurse may not have been a noble, and she wasn’t very attractive, it still was not right to draw attention to that in a public place, or anywhere for that matter.
I think that Shakespeare had a couple different reasons for including this scene. I believe one reason was to show how the different classes were treated. Nobles like the Capulet’s and Montague’s were widely respected by the society of Verona and were treated very well. The nobles could pretty much get away with anything. On the other hand pheasants and servants were treated very poorly. Another reason for this scene could be to show how immature Romeo really is. He is only a 15 year old boy, and still obviously doesn’t have much regard for other people’s feelings. This may be another way for Shakespeare to show us that Romeo is not ready for marriage, which is a commitment made for people who are mature and ready to commit to a single person.
An observation I made when Romeo and his friends were teasing the nurse was that was only teasing the nurse until he knew who she was. This shows that Romeo is a very shallow person. Shakespeare is showing us again that Romeo is not ready to get married. Marriage is a big responsibility. You must treat your spouse extremely well all the time. However, during the age of Romeo and Juliet, marriage was very different then it is today. Men didn’t have to treat their spouse with respect. We read an article called The Gender Differences in the 1200-1400 which said, “It would be acceptable, and almost recommended, for Romeo to beat his wife.” This shows the vast differences between marriage today and marriage at the time of Romeo and Juliet. However, Romeo might have been considered to be ready to marry in his day just because treating lower-class people badly was acceptable in his time. I think that Shakespeare also put this in because he wanted to show that even the highest ranking servants were treated like dirt to the upper-class people.
RE: Mr. Nerthling
I agree with what you are saying Mr. Nerthling. Shakespeare problem made this scene both for entertainment purposes, but also to show the way that the upper class treated the people in the lower class. I also agree that many television shows have times were the upper class bullys the lower class for entertainment. Even though it is wrong, many people do find situations like that to be humorous and entertaining.
RE: Lauren Cooper: I agree with what you had to say about Shakespeare trying to show that Romeo was immature and may not be ready for a commitment. The nurse is like Romeo’s mother, and I don’t think that making fun of the girls’ mother you want to marry shows maturity or respect. I know the time period was different and they made fun of her because she was lower class, but even today we make fun of people that don’t have as much as others. I also think that putting the fact that the nurse is practically Juliet’s mother, if a group of boys is making fun of someone, I don’t think it is likely for one of them to stand up and say something.
The nurse was treated quite unfairly by Romeo and his friends. Their comments were extremely rude and very immature. They teased her for her appearance and made fun of her size by comparing her to a boat. Then the sexual remarks started. Mercutio, of course, was the main instigator. Everyone followed Mercutio’s lead including Romeo. I personally don’t like the character Romeo and his actions with the nurse just gave reason to my dislike. Though Romeo feels that he is ready to be married and take care of his wife, I disagree. This encounter with the nurse just showed that Romeo has a lot of growing up to do still. He claims to love Juliet and he knows the nurse is her close companion, but laughs when his friends tease her anyway. I’m not really sure of Shakespeare’s intent on putting this scene into his play. There are a number of reasons that come to my mind. One reason could be for showing the different levels of the class system. Obviously the Capulet and Montague families are both wealthy and highly respected in the city of Verona. It was probably common for them to make fun of a person of a lower class. Another reason I think of, is maybe this meeting in the street was a foreshadowing to the Montague and Capulet feud. Though they may not physically fight in the streets, a verbal battle and dislike of the opposite family may always be in place. The reason that I think Shakespeare included it most for was to be funny in the beginning, but also show that Romeo isn’t as ready for love as he claims. This is proven when he gets into a fight with Tybalt. Romeo ends up killing Tybalt and is banned from the streets of Verona. The next thing you know, he’s with Friar Lawrence, crying on the floor like a small child. Romeo also tries to kill himself with a dagger, not thinking of how Juliet and his family would feel. He was thinking for himself and being selfish. This is how a child would act. Not a supposed adult who is ready to love and be married.
Romeo and Juliet Act II: Question 2
Romeo was well aware of the nurse’s position in the Capulet’s house, but he intentionally disrespected her. Romeo may not have realized that this was the woman that his newly wed looked up to most, but he did have an understanding of her importance to the family. Romeo as well as his friends said denoting things towards the nurse, and made fun of her rank in the social class. Prior to reading this scene I deemed Romeo as a polite, kind gentleman. I now see that he is willing to act out immaturely when he is around his friends of the same age. I suppose Shakespeare included this scene for more than one reason. To the audience this specific scene would have been very humorous to read as well as acted out. Secondly, I believe that he included this scene to restate where the nurse was positioned in the social class. This was a very important aspect of people’s lives during the Shakespearean time. People of the nurse’s rank were not treated fairly or in the most proper manner, as was intentionally portrayed in this scene. If Romeo had known to the greatest extent how much the nurse was part of the Juliet’s life, I do not believe he would have acted out in this immature manner. I would like to believe that he would have stopped his friends from saying such degrading words, and helped the nurse get to where she needed to be. This scene sets up many questions that are important to how we should feel about each character and their true roles.
From what I have learned, it has been a pattern of society to unfairly treat people of the lower class with disrespect when many times these individuals were never given the chance to succeed. In today’s culture, most Americans are now given the opportunity to go to school in aspirations of choosing their own destiny, no matter how rich or poor they are. However in the time of Shakespeare, these privileges only applied to the upper class. If you were born a peasant, that was your fate and vice versa with the people of the upper class. As this class barrier played out its course in history, the upper class assumed superior positions, taking dominion over the lower class and the same realistic situation was written into “Romeo and Juliet”. In the streets of Verona, Romeo and his friends taunted the nurse about things that she had no control over, like her speech and knowledge. And ironically, the upper class seemed responsible for declining the lower class of education yet they made fun of the lower class for being uneducated. Not only did they bully her by words, but they taunted her until the scene got somewhat physical. Personally, this does not in any way seem morally right and I am shocked that the upper class found this behavior acceptable. Even in today’s society, that narrow-mindedness is not tolerated. However I do think that Shakespeare purposely put this scene in the play to show the clear class difference and also because some of the people from that time period probably thought that it was amusing.
When the nurse finally found Romeo, he was sitting with his friends on the side of the street. As the nurse began to approach Romeo, he and his friends started to throw jeers and insults at the nurse and make fun of her appearance her lower status, and the fact that she is old. She was mistreated and became the butt of deplorable insults, especially from Mercutio. For instance, Mercutio said that a sail has “a fairer face” than her (pg 97), he said that she is an “ancient woman” (pg 99), and he said that she is a dirty, old “hoar” (pg 99). Romeo even contributed to these insults by saying that the nurse’s clothes looked like “a sail”. Essentially, the nurse was incredibly mistreated and made fun of.
I’ve always been an advocate for decent and respectful behavior. Naturally, I am a bit disturbed by the behavior of the boys because of this. I can really feel for the nurse as well, considering that over the years I’ve also been the victim of a large number of jokes. Adding to the rashness of the boys’ behavior is the fact that the nurse didn’t do anything wrong or disrespectful in the first place, which also gives me a bit of a sense of dislike toward Romeo and his friends, who are made out to be some of the story’s protagonists. This then leads me to wonder why Shakespeare would incorporate this scene into the play.
One reason why I believe that Shakespeare did this is to exhibit the class differences occurring during that time period. It is incredibly evident that the peasantry and the lower class, such as people like nurse, were disrespected by the higher class, no matter the age difference or sex difference. The higher classes exhibit almost total dominance over the lower class. More specifically, I also think that Shakespeare did this in order to develop Romeo more as a character. This scene portrays Romeo as being very much like a regular high school boy, especially one such as myself. He is shown in this scene as a boy who, while appearing mature on the outside in most situations, can fall into the juvenile and immature ways of his friends when he is among them. To me, this makes Romeo even more accessible, since I have been a victim of doing that as well. Shakespeare shows that Romeo is not that mature boy that we have originally made him out to be, and it could lead one to wonder if he is actually to maintain a married relationship with Juliet.
I would like to make one more point pertaining to this. I do not think Romeo would have done this if he knew that the nurse was Juliet’s friend. However, Romeo had never had an interaction with the nurse up until this point, so he reacted the same way he normally would if he encountered a poor peasant.
People often are afraid of having differing viewpoints and opinions than other people. This fear of being “different” is where peer pressure originates form. The fact is that everybody is different and there is no way to avoid it. Some people have no problem with pointing out their personal differences and drawing attention to themselves; people like this don’t mind attention. Me personally, I don’t like to draw attention to myself, however I also never give in to peer pressure. Every year right before districts in swimming everyone on the boys’ team shaves their head. They do this for many reasons, one of which being that they claim that they can “feel an amazing rush when their head hits the water.” The other and more prominent reason is that their hair has lost all elasticity in the cuticles. The whole team each year tries to convince me to shave my head. However, I refuse to shave my head regardless of the fact that everyone shaves their heads. Me, I like to have hair.
In addition to having different opinions; people also often have multiple personalities. Most people have one for their family and another for their friends. Even adults have different personalities too. They most likely have one personality for their job and another for their friends and family.
I think both of these reasons; peer pressure and Romeo’s personality with his friends, were the reasons why Romeo made fun of the Nurse. I feel that Romeo in this scene acted as he did to be like the other “guys” because he thinks that he has to make fun of the nurse to be accepted by the other boys. Mercuito was the first boy who started making fun of the Nurse. Some of the other boys then followed but also making fun of the Nurse. They made crude sexual remarks to the Nurse.
I think the reason that Shakespeare added this scene to the play was to show that Romeo is still just a teenager. Even though Romeo was acting mature by getting married, this scene shows that he is still immature. Back in the time of Shakespeare, it was not uncommon for boys Romeo’s age to get married. Men of this time period were expected to be married no sooner that 21 and women were expected to be married around 15 years of age. I think Shakespeare is showing that at this age, they are too young to get married because they are not mature enough. This scene, I feel, is also to show how prominent the class system was in this time period. The class system of this time period was highly ordered. The lowest class was the poor and diseased. The next highest was the commoners and working middle class. The highest class was the wealthy nobles, government officials and members of the clergy. In this type of rigid class system of Shakespeare’s time, it was acceptable for someone of a higher class to make fun of the poorer members of society.
Re: Mr. Nerthling
Carl did an awesome job of hitting all the pints that Shakespeare was trying to convey. However I don't agree that she was going along with the teasing. I feel like she wasn't going to put up with people being disrespectful to her because of class and she wanted to stand up for herself. When the boys didn't let up, she got agitated and got upset.
The way that Romeo and his friends treated the nurse was very wrong. I don’t think that they treated her like that because they knew that she served the Capulets. They treated her like that because she was of the lower class. Romeo and his friends are of the upper class. It also doesn’t help to boot that Romeo is talked about in the streets of Verona. Everyone was laughing at the boys picking on the nurse because she was a lower class. I think that they did not want to step in, as it was a form of entertainment to the town square. It was very wrong to be treated like that, but I am glad that the nurse was trying to fight back. Back then, woman just sat back and produced children as the men ran free and did as they pleased.
Romeo and his friends were incredibly rude to the nurse, and they mocked her. I don’t think the boys were making fun of her because she is a Capulet servant, just that she is a much lower class than themselves. Although I didn’t see it as well when we were reading the play, once I saw how the words were set into motion in the movie, I could really tell how rude they were being. Romeo seemed to be okay with how they were mocking the nurse when he was with his friends, but after they left, Romeo seemed caring and kind towards the nurse. He was also apologetic for his friends behavior. He did this just because he wanted to hear what Juliet had to say, not to spare the feelings of the nurse. To many people, such as Romeo and his friends, it is easy to poke fun of people who aren’t very wealthy and don’t live a luxurious lifestyle. We should realize that this is extremely inappropriate behavior and we wouldn’t like it if we were the ones being made fun of. Still today, we make fun of people who are poor, but not to the extent they did in Romeo and Juliet. No one acts as if this is abnormal in any way; we are just so accustomed to the way it is now, we aren’t willing to change. I think Shakespeare’s intent was to point out this flaw of our society. But it’s unbelievable that this problem is still present today, and somehow, Shakespeare knew this problem would be around today.
In the streets of Verona, Romeo is with his friends when Juliet’s nurse comes to speak with Romeo. She attempts to be sophisticated, but rather makes a fool of herself. She wants to have a word with Romeo and says, “I desire some confidence with you,” while she probably meant ‘I desire some conference with you’. Romeo’s friends laugh and make jokes at the nurse and are somewhat mean to her. Also, she’s with the Capulets, their lifelong enemy. They have no respect for the other family, so why would they respect those who serve the Capulets?
Personally, I see this treatment as pretty normal for today. We all have a laugh when someone uses a word wrong or mispronounces something. In the play, it seemed they more just laughed at her unlike the movie where they really harassed her. Considering we're talking about the play, I see it as just having a laugh at someone's expense.
I believe that Shakespeare put this in the play for some comedy, but more so to point out the class systems. The treatment of the lower class is poor, while the higher class is regarded with respect. The higher class could get away with much more. If someone of the lower class said the same things to someone of the higher class as the boys said to the nurse, they would have probably been heavily punished. Equality was not a concept they took to.
Re: Andrea Miller
Andrea is right on how reading the play did not give you a sense on how much the boys were making fun of the nurse. The movie really showed us the actions of the words. Our society today does stereotype people by materialistic things. Teenagers today want to wear Hollister or other big brand names on t-shirts to fit in with others. We are willing to pay a large amount of money for items so that we can show others we are as good as they are. Also, we make fun of people who are different then us. Romeo’s actions remind me of a lot of people who can behave one way around some and another way around others. Romeo was afraid to upset Juliet and apologized for being rude to the nurse. However, he did not want to make his friends upset if he did not participate in the rude behavior. Very often we do this to try not to get anyone mad at us. I agree that Shakespeare was trying to show us the flaw of society. And yes, things have not changed very much today.
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